Why Not World Peace?

Let’s interpret the lack of world peace…

I hear that all religions are essentially the same, moving us towards the same goal or god.

Is that so?

The road to world peace seems to be simply to forget our differences and all hold hands under the banner of love and mutual interest in peace. The United Nations, the World Council of Churches, the Trilateral Commission, and every college professor alive seems to all be geared towards getting everyone together under one big, happy tent of peace and endless joy. What’s the problem?

The problem is that Truth divides. Why? Truth divides because what we believe matters, immensely. Like, beyond description it matters. To compromise Truth is to lose Truth completely…

Simply put…

Let me make it as simple as possible, so simple I open myself up to seeming to be simple. It goes something like this:

All of the false, man-made religions which leave people ultimately undone by the justice of God are philosophies which keep people in the dark, including the many counterfeit forms of Christianity. Again, to put it simply: man is at war with God, and one of our favorite ways of fighting God is to create our own religious systems, to try and earn our way back to Him. This is the root of all war and strife in the world – we are fighting God so of course we fight each other. We are a warlike race. We have been so bold as to declare war on God, on His earth (through greed and environmental rape), on the animal kingdom (in misusing and depleting them), and on each other in endless wars of aggression between individuals, communities, companies, schools, states, countries, and tribes. It all originates with war against God through false religion. The simplest way to see that all false religion is truly false is to spot the common thread:

ALL OF THEM END UP SAYING IT THIS WAY: you must do something in order to get what you need, be it salvation, enlightenment, good feelings, nirvana, academic acclaim, etc etc etc whatever one may call it.

Almost there!

Are you a Buddhist? Roman Catholic? Jehovah’s Witness? Atheist? Self-religionist? Muslim?

I'm sure we're all going to end up in the same place by different paths! Yeah... about that destination.

Agnostic, Pentecostal, hedonist, Baptist, dog, cat, or mouse who thinks you must do something in order to earn something from God or to earn your goodness in the world? (Hint: we all are like this by nature – self-deceived and dead). You (and I) need a strong gospel…

There is only ONE TRUTH, ONE WAY out of all of the religions, philosophies, ideas, and daydreams – the way of Jesus Christ. In Him, and in Him alone is there a different conclusion from all the others. In Him it is not you must do in order to get what you need. No.

In Jesus it is simply: He has done it all for you. He accomplished it…

He has decided to create, He has decided to initiate, He has built and made

and started and begun and assured

ALL

that is necessary to bring men out of darkness, out of rebellion against God, out of their deep, dark pits of sin,

HE

has done it, start to finish – it is accomplished, it is finished, τετελεσται, and He has guaranteed our perfect, seamless, airtight, complete redemption by dying in the place of the enemies of God.

HE

raised Himself from the dead three days later, He then ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father, ruling the cosmos in Sovereign power. No one will unseat Jesus from the throne of the universe. No one will defeat Him. No one can fool Him –

-He is God-

So… simply put, it is an insult to God to claim any contribution to your religion or salvation. All we can do is receive what Christ has done for us on the Roman death cross in dying in our place for our sins – yet even that trusting in Jesus and receiving His payment for our sins is a gift of grace to us who on our own are totally incapable of believing in Him. That’s how bad off we are. That’s how bad we need a Savior. We need Jesus.

Paid in full. Nothing to add.

And… it is therefore impossible to have peace with those who do not believe in these teachings of Christ’s Sovereignty and perfect gift of salvation which cannot be earned, cannot be bought. There you have it, world peace is only possible through all knees bowing to Him, the King. So, what are you waiting for?

The alternative is no world peace

…as humanity struggles to be king through false religion and individual accomplishment… Oh, and to those of you who believe that abolishing religion is the key to world peace, I’m right there with you. I’m with you as long as the we agree the Abolisher is Jesus, and He has promised to do so when He returns in glory to announce the consummation of His eternal, unchallenged reign. When that happens, all falsehood will cease, everyone who has loved Him will have peace, and all who have set-up a religion or philosophy which is against Him will then lose everything in judgment… just to put it simply.

Which kingdom are you in?

Life or Death

Thanks for reading,

-Justin

Categories: Comparative Religions, The Message of the Bible, Understanding the Culture | Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 16 Comments

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16 thoughts on “Why Not World Peace?

  1. Steve

    Where in the bible does it state Jesus raised himself from the dead?

    • Man I love a careful reader – welcome to my blog Steve! I’m glad you asked; here is the answer:
      John 2:18-22
      18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”

      19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

      20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”

      21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
      ———————————-
      So unless you’d like me to give a detailed exposition of this text, which I would happily do, you can see that Jesus plainly claims that He will be personally responsible to raise Himself from the dead.

      • Steve

        I see.   It is clear to me that you feel very strongly about your understanding.  

        So, does your view and understanding agree with all the scriptures associated with with this? I am well aware of those that feel that Jesus and Jehovah are the same persons, that the Son of God is the same as God the Father.  Is this your position or do you have a different view?

        • Steve – thanks for the questions. There is only One true God – He, although One in Being, reveals Himself as three Persons. No matter how hard that is to comprehend, we must take Him at His Word and not try to reason Him out at our human level. Just because something is not like our experience or outside of our grasp does not make it untrue – and if there is one thing in this universe which we ought to expect to be outside of our ability to reason and grasp, it should be and is the nature of God.

          It has been helpful to me to realize that something can be reasonable and true and still be outside of my ability to completely comprehend.

          Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after Me.” (ESV)

          What did you think of John 2:18-22 where Jesus claims to be the one to raise Himself from the dead? What kind of claim is that? The Bible is written all about Jesus – He is the jewel of it all. He gets all the attention, glory, and worship of men and angels. He is sinless and different than any man, yet while He is truly a Man and humbles Himself under the authority of God the Father as such, He also accepts the worship of Thomas (John 20:28-29). No angel or man or mere prophet should ever accept worship – that belongs to God alone! So either Jesus was sinful in allowing Thomas to worship Him, or He was at once a Man and Almighty God, One with the Father and the Spirit.

          Long answer, but you are probably a deeply thoughtful guy so I don’t want to play games with you. Please do share your beliefs with us.

  2. Steve

    Well, I too believe in one God almighty.  His name being Jehovah.  Additionally, I believe Jesus to be God’s son, a god as well and, yes, worthy of our praise. Moreover, I believe as the bible states that Satan the Devil is a god as well.

    On two points we seem to agree, Jesus is a god and deserves our praise.  The impasse is Jesus being God almighty, Jehovah.  Those that believe this have a long heritage that dates back to before Constantine.  There was great debate during Constantine’s reign concerning this issue.  It fact, the issue was so polarizing, it threaten to stability of Constantine’s reign.  But that was then and this is now.  And not much has changed.  The Trinity doctrine is just as controversial today as it was then.  And there are many supporter as well. 

    So, God manifests himself by way of three different personalities.  And yet, the discussion about Jehovah and Jesus being one was the only issue of debate during the council at Nicene.  In fact, there is no mention of the Holy Spirit being part of the equation.  The Nicene Creed establish this fact.  Specifically, it starts this way, “We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible;”.  There is no mention of Holy Spirit as being art of the equation.  The Holy Spirit is mention towards the end of he creed with no connection to any one God.  In short, all the Nicene Creed states is, “We believe in the Holy Spirit”.  It was not until some years later that the 
    Niceno–Constantinopolitan Creed reaffirmed the Nicene Creed and added the holy spirit “Lord” and “life-giver.”

    So, this man-made doctrine came together over time.  It was not something fully accepted in full or in part.  At some point, through refinement, this philosophy became  a key church doctrine supported and driven more by the Church Fathers rather than the scripture.

    Or would you say that the Church Fathers had it right and the scriptures contradict themselves?  Remember, I initially stated that what ever scripture you use to support your understanding, it needs to harmonize with the whole bible.  That is what is meant at 2 Tim 3:16.  

    • Thanks for sharing that, Steve. Before I attempt to dive into any more of the details and history of your comments, I’d like to rewind just a tad if we could take it a step at a time. That way we can hold together a focused exchange – how’s that sound?

      First, what is your interpretation of John 2:18-22? If you could provide a semi-detailed exegesis of the text, that would be great. Specifically, what do we make of the fact that Jesus claims to be the one who raises Himself from the dead? How does that harmonize with the Scripture?

      Second, if you’ll look back at my last response, I quoted Isaiah 43:10 wherein Jehovah says very clearly that before Him was no god formed, and nor shall there be one after Him. From this text, where would you say Jesus fits in as far as the beginning or eternality of His existence?

  3. Steve

    “First, what is your interpretation of John 2:18-22? If you could provide a semi-detailed exegesis of the text, that would be great. Specifically, what do we make of the fact that Jesus claims to be the one who raises Himself from the dead? How does that harmonize with the Scripture?”

    So, the question is do these scripture indicate that Jesus had power to raise himself from the dead and proving, as you believe, that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person?

    I do not think your focus is on the temple though it is significant.  So, let us start at verse 13 to 18 where Jesus had just cleansed the temple of those money changers and merchants.  It was at this time that Jesus was confronted and asked to give a sign as proof that he had the authority to do what he did in the temple.  The Jews were referring to the physical temple where as Jesus was referring to himself as a temple, the chief corer stone of the the Spiritual house of temple of God.  These passages do not support the idea that Jehovah and Jesus are the same persons.  The conversation was not even about that.

    The question is that if you support the fact the Jesus raised himself, how does that harmonize with other scriptures.  Here are a few the clearly show that somebody else raised Jesus from the dead.

    1.  Rom. 8:11
    2.  1 Cor. 15:15
    3. 1 Cor. 1:20

    Moreover, if Jesus and Jehovah are one in the same, how does one rationalize the one being both dead and alive?  Are we to believe that he was dead as the Christ but alive as Gd who raised himself up as the Christ????

    Verse 22 is a narrative from the apostle John which spoke to a future event.  It is ever understood as a continuation quote from Jesus.  Additionally, Verse  22 clearly states that “he was raised from the dead”, not he raised himself.  I was not good in math in school but I was pretty good in English and English 101 and 102.  I also do a lot of writing on the federal level in my current occupation.  You can not get to Jesus and Jehovah being the same persons from verse 22.  What you do get is that someone or something raised Jesus, but who or what?

    If you are asking honest-hearted, intelligent human being to accept that “he was raised from the dead” to mean anything else other than what it states, then you are right, the Trinity Doctrine is a mystery.  

    “Second, if you’ll look back at my last response, I quoted Isaiah 43:10 wherein Jehovah says very clearly that before Him was no god formed, and nor shall there be one after Him. From this text, where would you say Jesus fits in as far as the beginning or eternality of His existence?”

    This is not the context of he conversation.  If you review the verses before, one can clearly see that Jehovah is contrasting himself with idols or false gods.  This conversation was not about where Jesus existed in the heavens with Jehovah as a equal nor more than the rest of the angels.  Also, we must harmonize the scripture jwith other scripture such as:

    1.  1 Cor. 8:5:6
    2.  Ps.  82:1-2
    3.  2Cor. 4.4

    Based on the above Scriptures, it is clear that there were many gods or people and spiritual creatures worshipped as gods that contradict your read of Isaiah 43:10.  So, how does one reconcile two opposing views or understood views? How can there be no gods after Jehovah when clearly the bible speaks of other gods? 

    • Concerning John 2:18-22,

      Romans 8:11 & 1 Cor 15:15 do apply to Jesus’ resurrection, 1 Cor 1:20 does not – I take it there’s a typo with that last one maybe. In any case, in looking at the plain meaning of Jesus’ words in John 2:19, He is indeed responding to the Jews’ request for a sign. Its just like in Matthew 16:4 where they ask for a sign and He says that generation will receive no sign but that of the prophet Jonah. What happened to Jonah? He was “raised” after three days in the belly of the fish. Jesus is giving the same prophecy in John 2:19 – He states that if they “destroy” “this temple,” read “murder” “My body” – then in three days I will raise it up. John gives us the clear warrant to interpret Jesus’ meaning this way – “He was speaking of the temple of His body.”

      So, putting it together, Jesus tells the Jews that the sign of His authority to act as the purifier of God’s temple is the fact that He will raise up His own destroyed body from the dead. This then is harmonized with the rest of Scripture which plainly teaches that God raised Jesus from the dead – either Jesus misspoke and meant to say “destroy this temple and in three days Jehovah will raise it up,” or He spoke correctly and claimed to be working with His Father in the resurrection.

      Remember this?
      John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” 18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (NASB)

      Nobody less than the incarnate Son of God, co-equal with the Father could make claims like these. Note especially in v23 that Jesus says “all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.” Wow. Steve, as an honest-hearted person, can you look at these claims of Jesus and truly conclude that He did not mean to claim equality with His Father? How dare a created being make such claims – and the Jews were not confused. They tried to stone Him for blasphemy because He claimed equality with Almighty God. Pretty clear, to the honest-hearted.

      —————-

      “Moreover, if Jesus and Jehovah are one in the same, how does one rationalize the one being both dead and alive? Are we to believe that he was dead as the Christ but alive as G[o]d who raised himself up as the Christ????”

      I hope my above answer helps to clarify this – but just to be honest, the Scriptures do not give us an ultra clear picture of the dynamic between Jesus’ two natures at His death, burial, and resurrection. All we can know for sure on that is that the eternal, incarnate Word of God died a literal bodily death under the wrath of the Father as a propitiation for our sins. We can know for sure that the very same Jesus in the very same body rose from the dead three days later.

      If you think that anyone but an infinitely worthy, unique, eternal Son could suffer that infinitely powerful wrath of the Father and still rise from the dead, well then I would invite you to study the Scriptures again, with an open heart, with any other materials put away, and asking Jehovah God to please reveal the true Jesus to you. If you or anyone asks Jehovah God to reveal Himself in Spirit and truth, coming to Him with childlike faith, He promises to be “near to the brokenhearted,” and that He “gives grace to the humble.”

      The catch is, we have to empty the basket of our works, our merits, our effort as something which sways God in our favor. We have to approach Him with empty hands, asking for the full righteousness of Christ adding nothing of our own. If anyone comes to God with something of themselves in the mix, they are rejected and cast out. “Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to the cross I cling.”

      ——————

      Concerning Is 43:10,

      Since my response to John 2 has become lengthy, I will wait to discuss this passage specifically. I don’t mind responding, but I also don’t want to create a novel-length comment 🙂

      I’d like to hear your further comments on John 2.

  4. Steve

    Yes, you are correct. 1 Cor. 1:20 was a typo.  The correct scripture is Eph. 1:20.  

    As to Jonah, it too does not state that he was raised up.    When considering the whole story of Jonah, we pick it up at 1:17 where it states Jehovah cause or commanded a great fish to swallow Jonah.  At 2:10,  it is Jehovah who commands the fish to spit him out on dry land, the beach.  The scriptures do not state that Jonah did something to make the fish regurgitate him out.  But rather, it was Jehovah God who save Jonah from the digestive juice with in the fish’s belly.  Three days does correspond to Jesus being DEAD.  But he, just like Jonah, was rescued.  Neither saved their own lives.   In the case of Jesus, he did not have a life to save; he was already DEAD.  How could he raise himself if he was DEAD????  There is nothing in the scriptures that suggest that Jesus was not really DEAD!!!  He was not just dead in the flesh.  He was dead in every sense and aspect of what we have come to know and what the scripture have stated about death.

     And yes, we are in agreement that Jesus was referring to his body as a temple.  Still, there is no consistent agreeable scriptural proof  nor is there any implying that Jesus raised himself from the dead.  In fact, there is more proof verbatim that he was raised by Jehovah.  I have cited just a few scriptures that clearly show that someone else other than Jesus is involved.  These scriptures, by themselves and collectively contradict your understanding or your conclusions.  So, the real question is were the Church Fathers right???  Were they correct in believing that the bible the does not contain ALL the correct understanding about Jehovah?  Is it really possible for human beings to have greater knowledge about God than what is written in the bible?  More importantly, is it Jehovah, God almighty’s purpose for mankind to be confused and in the dark about himself and his angelic son the one referred to as a mighty god, Jesus?? Or is it the disobedient angelic son, the one called Satan the Devil, who is referred to in the scriptures as a god also, who is blinding the minds of unbelievers, purpose to distort God’s name, his purpose for mankind, his purpose for the earth and Jesus’s role in Jehovah’ purpose? And finally, does the bible really contradict itself or does the man-made Trinity Doctrine contradict the bible? 

    If you are contending that God split himself, sent part of himself to die so the other part of himself could raise himself up from the dead, this is truly a mystery.  And would probably be accepted if there were not multitudes of scripture in God’s word stating contrary, something consistently and agreeably different. 

    As for your second point starting at John 5:17, again, you have Jesus strongly declaring that he is not his Father.  Rather, Jesus is clearly showing that he and his father are engaged in working together, in the same work concerning mankind salvation.  In any culture, environment, country and tribe, it is not unusual for children to work with their mothers and fathers, especially if it is a family business.  No one would ever think that the children and parents are one in the flesh, the same people, equal to each other if any of children would stated, ” I continue doing what my mother or father keep doing.”

    Continuing on, Jesus knowing what was in their the hearts clears the matter up and sets the faulty conclusions straight by drawing the distinction between him and his father, Jehovah.  If Jesus can not do one thing without the aid of his father or what he sees his father doing, clearly, he is in a subordinate role and not equal to his father, Jehovah.  This is the viewpoint Jesus wanted to make clear to those listening. This is what the bible teaches and what the Trinity Doctrine seeks to contradict.  The bible clearly states that at no time did Jesus seek seizer of his fathers authority or glory.  The bible never states that Jesus came to do the will of the part of himself that sent him!!!! And nor is it implied!!!! But in order to believe otherwise, one must ignore what is written and allow their ears to be tickled with empty reasonings supported by philosophies of men rather than the truth of God’s word.

    As for your statement, “Nobody less than the incarnate Son of God, co-equal with the Father could make claims like these”, does not make sense.  This conclusion you are drawing would be challenged by any rational thinking person.  In the context of what Jesus was stating, even I myself have made similar statement about my relationship with my mother and father and not once did any hearing concluded I as stating I was equal or the same as either of my parents.  And statements like, “he is just like his father or she is just like her mother”, does not imply a co-equal, a oneness in the flesh and being equal in knowledge or power.  But rather highlights the similarities in personalities, skills, abilities, appearances, accomplishments, etc.

    Your final process for understanding and believing the Trinity Doctrine is an act of a desperate heart that refuses to accept the sky is not falling just because there is rain.  Because rain comes from the saturation of water molecules (clouds in the sky) does not mean earth’s atmosphere is collapsing.  And a study of the atmosphere brings us to the proper understanding of why it rains in the first place.  And nobody believes the sky is falling.  But you would have us believe otherwise based on……..?????

    So, when you state, “The catch is, we have to empty the basket of our works, our merits, our effort as something which sways God in our favor”,  sounds like you are telling people to just believe because you say so or the Church Fathers say so.  Where is the proof.  Let’s challenge the evidence.  But you suggest that there should not be a challenging of your evidence, call in to question your theories and disagree with your assumptions.  We should not attempt to duplicate your reasoning process to see if we come up with the same conclusions or confusion.

    Every fact is supported by a mountain of peer review.  This is how we know the sky is not falling even though it rains.   On the other hand, every political decision is supported by those that stand to gain from it,  whether it be good or bad.   The Trinity Doctrine is political, not scriptural.   Too many historians have already substantiated this as fact, many of whom are not connected to either side of the issue.   That’s the reason it does not harmonize with the whole bible, why many scriptures have to be ignored for fear of contradiction and dissenting thought.   2 Cor. 13:5 tell believers to keep testing as to whether they are in the faith. All 66 books of the bible are in harmony with each other from beginning to end.   When I test the Trinity Doctrine against the bible, it does not measure up and is proven to be completely out of harmony with the scriptures.  Sure, you can find a scripture or two to bend in this man-made doctrine’s direction.  But that s just my point, BENDING!!! And is that really the way we should think?  Is the bible the standard or the man-made Trinity Doctrine?  The Trinity Doctrine is not needed nor is it relevant for understanding God’s word the bible. 

    When Jesus was praying to his Father, his God Jehovah at John 17:17, he stated that his God’s word is truth.  And indeed it is!!!  He did not state it was a mystery or difficult to understand.  This is why  Jehovah’s Witnesses have only one doctrine, God’s word the Bible.  It is the only reliable source as opined at 2 Tim 3:16. 

    Jehovah’s word the bible can speak for its self.   That Trinity Doctrine needs a lot of help, help that does not exist.

    • Steve, to again attempt to have something of an orderly exchange, I will paste your response, break it up into numbered sections, and respond. If you want to answer again, please cite each section by number. This may help us to stay as focused as possible. Before I jump into your arguments and attempt to respond, I should make something clear:

        As a follower of Jesus, I am bound to the source of information and doctrine concerning God, salvation, and humanity – the Bible. We Christians do not look to Church Fathers or anyone else to learn theology – as it says in 1 John “you do not need anyone to teach you, for you all know.” I did not come to believe in Jesus because somebody sat me down and told me what to believe. I read the Bible. When I read the Bible, God opened my eyes to who He is and what He has done. Steve, doesn’t that mess up what you’ve been taught about evangelicals? Nobody, I repeat, nobody told me to believe that Jesus is the 2nd Person of the One true God – I found that while reading the Bible. I was so shocked to see it, I had to stop and pray and ask God to clarify in my spirit if what I was seeing was right. Lord, is Jesus God and worthy of worship? The answer came back in 1,000 ways – and nobody had to tell me to believe it. So don’t tell me about Church councils, emperors, or pagan mythology – especially if you are yourself taking in knowledge through the organization. That means you’re placing your eternal life in the hands of someone(s) who are telling you what to believe and to trust them and their word, rather than to go straight to God yourself. I know, you disagree with that assessment. No matter what you say, you are depending on second hand information unless you yourself have gone to the sources and verified everything the Watchtower is telling you. If you did that, you might see things a little differently. But I digress. On to the response.

        1)
        “As to Jonah, it too does not state that he was raised up. When considering the whole story of Jonah, we pick it up at 1:17 where it states Jehovah cause or commanded a great fish to swallow Jonah. At 2:10, it is Jehovah who commands the fish to spit him out on dry land, the beach. The scriptures do not state that Jonah did something to make the fish regurgitate him out. [clip]”

        You’ve missed my point completely in bringing up Jonah. All I was showing is that John 2:18-22 is like Matthew 16:1-4 in that Jesus was answering the request for a sign. In each case He responds with a metaphor describing the resurrection. This does not answer who raised Him, only that Jesus preaches His resurrection as the sign of who He is.

        2)
        “In the case of Jesus, he did not have a life to save; he was already DEAD. How could he raise himself if he was DEAD???? There is nothing in the scriptures that suggest that Jesus was not really DEAD!!! He was not just dead in the flesh. He was dead in every sense and aspect of what we have come to know and what the scripture have stated about death.”

        You are assuming without proving the Watchtower doctrine of annihilation at death – but remember Jesus, when answering the Sadducees who did not believe in soul-consciousness after bodily death, said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. This is a clear reference to the conscious existence of men who have perished from the body. I know we cannot see our own blindspots, but Steve you have filled your comments with assertions that are simply assumptions based on Watchtower doctrine. You’ll have to leave behind the organization and deal in the source – the Bible, or else your reasoning will not have any force. Bible – Source > Watchtower – second hand interpreter 1800 years later.

        3)
        And yes, we are in agreement that Jesus was referring to his body as a temple. Still, there is no consistent agreeable scriptural proof nor is there any implying that Jesus raised himself from the dead. In fact, there is more proof verbatim that he was raised by Jehovah. I have cited just a few scriptures that clearly show that someone else other than Jesus is involved. These scriptures, by themselves and collectively contradict your understanding or your conclusions.

        I did not deny someone else is involved. I agree that the majority of Scriptures state that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. That is why I quoted Jesus from John 5 claiming that whatever He sees the Father doing, He also does. No mere angel could make that claim – and the Jews understood very clearly what He meant. That’s why they tried to stone Him. You didn’t deal with the text where John says Jesus “made Himself equal with God.” Why does John say that? These Scriptures harmonize beautifully – The Father raised up Jesus from death, and Jesus is working the same things as the Father, and with the Father, as these are Persons of the same One Ultimate Being of God.

        4)
        So, the real question is were the Church Fathers right??? Were they correct in believing that the bible the does not contain ALL the correct understanding about Jehovah? Is it really possible for human beings to have greater knowledge about God than what is written in the bible? More importantly, is it Jehovah, God almighty’s purpose for mankind to be confused and in the dark about himself and his angelic son the one referred to as a mighty god, Jesus?? Or is it the disobedient angelic son, the one called Satan the Devil, who is referred to in the scriptures as a god also, who is blinding the minds of unbelievers, purpose to distort God’s name, his purpose for mankind, his purpose for the earth and Jesus’s role in Jehovah’ purpose? And finally, does the bible really contradict itself or does the man-made Trinity Doctrine contradict the bible?

        Friend, this paragraph is a prime example of you assuming your position rather than proving it. I do not, and neither do the Christians I know, claim to have greater knowledge of God than what He has revealed in His Word. We simply recognize the Scriptures as they are, and although the reality of God is inherently above our intellects, He has spoken of Himself in a way that is at least graspable – although not comprehensively. Surely you do not think you have a comprehensive understanding of Jehovah, right? There is only One Person who claims to know God – Jesus said in Matthew 11:27

          “All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

        Who would dare to make that claim but God Himself?

        5)
        If you are contending that God split himself, sent part of himself to die so the other part of himself could raise himself up from the dead, this is truly a mystery. And would probably be accepted if there were not multitudes of scripture in God’s word stating contrary, something consistently and agreeably different.

        Assertions without proof, in addition to stating the doctrine of the incarnation in such a way as to assume your position from the start. Nobody teaches that God “split himself.” You are confusing the two categories of Being and Person. God is One Being. That is monotheism. God is three Persons. That is Biblical revelation about the One Being of God. God cannot split His Being, however, the three Persons of Jehovah God are at work in different offices of redemption. The Father elects and foreordains a people to give to the Son, the Son dies for them and secures their salvation, and the Spirit applies that redemption to them in the gracious act of regeneration.

        6)
        As for your second point starting at John 5:17, again, you have Jesus strongly declaring that he is not his Father. Rather, Jesus is clearly showing that he and his father are engaged in working together, in the same work concerning mankind salvation.

        Yes, I agree. This is another example of you not understanding the category difference between Being and Person. They are at work together in different ways to accomplish the same goal of redemption. One Being in (this text) two divine Persons working together.

        7)
        In any culture, environment, country and tribe, it is not unusual for children to work with their mothers and fathers, especially if it is a family business. No one would ever think that the children and parents are one in the flesh, the same people, equal to each other if any of children would stated, ” I continue doing what my mother or father keep doing.”

        Being and Person – category error again.

        8)
        Continuing on, Jesus knowing what was in their the hearts clears the matter up and sets the faulty conclusions straight by drawing the distinction between him and his father, Jehovah. If Jesus can not do one thing without the aid of his father or what he sees his father doing, clearly, he is in a subordinate role and not equal to his father, Jehovah.

        Yes, the Son willingly emptied Himself of His divine prerogative and as a Man took on the form of a slave, subordinating Himself to the Father. This is again the differing roles of the Persons of the One God at work together to accomplish the redemption of His people.

        9)
        This is the viewpoint Jesus wanted to make clear to those listening. This is what the bible teaches and what the Trinity Doctrine seeks to contradict. The bible clearly states that at no time did Jesus seek seizer of his fathers authority or glory.

        If Jesus did not have a right to the glory of the Father, then you’ve got a biiig problem with a host of Scriptures. I again ask why Jesus then accepted worship and being called “My God” by Thomas. Why did Jesus accept that worship? What is going on in Revelation 5? Who is being worshiped together with the Father?

        10)
        The bible never states that Jesus came to do the will of the part of himself that sent him!!!! And nor is it implied!!!! But in order to believe otherwise, one must ignore what is written and allow their ears to be tickled with empty reasonings supported by philosophies of men rather than the truth of God’s word.

        The entirety of Jesus’ testimony about His true nature and mission is the revelation of His deity and equality with the Father as God, and subordination as Man. If you want to zero in on this, then simply reply to this one only and I’ll offer the Scriptures freely.

        11)
        As for your statement, “Nobody less than the incarnate Son of God, co-equal with the Father could make claims like these”, does not make sense. This conclusion you are drawing would be challenged by any rational thinking person. In the context of what Jesus was stating, even I myself have made similar statement about my relationship with my mother and father and not once did any hearing concluded I as stating I was equal or the same as either of my parents. And statements like, “he is just like his father or she is just like her mother”, does not imply a co-equal, a oneness in the flesh and being equal in knowledge or power. But rather highlights the similarities in personalities, skills, abilities, appearances, accomplishments, etc.

        So are you saying that it is ok for a mere creature to claim to be like Jehovah, to receive worship, to be the one who has the right to reveal or conceal the Father, and to have the rights to sovereign judgment over creation? Do you think Jehovah has stepped out of the glory-light of the Scriptures to give the center-stage to an angel? That would be a sad religion to me. Never in an eternity will I worship an angel/creature. God be praised, and to Him alone be the glory forever!

        12)
        Your final process for understanding and believing the Trinity Doctrine is an act of a desperate heart that refuses to accept the sky is not falling just because there is rain. Because rain comes from the saturation of water molecules (clouds in the sky) does not mean earth’s atmosphere is collapsing. And a study of the atmosphere brings us to the proper understanding of why it rains in the first place. And nobody believes the sky is falling. But you would have us believe otherwise based on……..?????

        Not sure what to say here.

        13)
        So, when you state, “The catch is, we have to empty the basket of our works, our merits, our effort as something which sways God in our favor”, sounds like you are telling people to just believe because you say so or the Church Fathers say so. Where is the proof. Let’s challenge the evidence. But you suggest that there should not be a challenging of your evidence, call in to question your theories and disagree with your assumptions. We should not attempt to duplicate your reasoning process to see if we come up with the same conclusions or confusion.

        I’m not sure how I communicated to you to not check the evidence or challenge my assertions. That would be great, because I stand on the Rock of Christ crucified for my sins, buried, and raised the third day in the same body for my justification. There is nothing to hide – everything we believe is wide open and is offered to all freely! Where is the proof you say? Well, just for starters, in Ephesians 2:1-10

          And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

          4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

        14)
        Every fact is supported by a mountain of peer review. This is how we know the sky is not falling even though it rains. On the other hand, every political decision is supported by those that stand to gain from it, whether it be good or bad. The Trinity Doctrine is political, not scriptural.

        This is a baseless wish, at best, no disrespect to you intended. I am glad you have chosen to dialogue with me, and I wish to say clearly that I mean no disrespect to you in anything I have said. I really love the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and anyone who knows me knows I have a great compassion for them. You have been seriously mislead by the Watchtower, and they have asked you to place your eternal life in their hands when in the Bible it is Jesus who commands us to trust in Him, come to Him, believe in Him, and even pray to Him. I am sorry that you will reject this as you read it, but you are more than welcome to continue to interact with my ideas. May God grant repentance and faith to both of us – we need His grace more than either of us will ever fathom.

        15)
        Too many historians have already substantiated this as fact, many of whom are not connected to either side of the issue.

        Even if that is true, the Bible is ultra-clear that people cannot and will not believe in the One true God as He reveals Himself – these things are only understandable to those who have been given eyes to see and ears to hear.

        16)
        That’s the reason it does not harmonize with the whole bible, why many scriptures have to be ignored for fear of contradiction and dissenting thought. 2 Cor. 13:5 tell believers to keep testing as to whether they are in the faith. All 66 books of the bible are in harmony with each other from beginning to end. When I test the Trinity Doctrine against the bible, it does not measure up and is proven to be completely out of harmony with the scriptures.

        What materials have you read that were not published by the Watchtower? Please answer this clearly. Would you be willing to put your doctrines to the test by reading a scholarly work by a Christian author? If not, why? I have found that JW’s are very fearful of hearing or reading things which are outside of the Watchtower. Think of it this way: who fled in the desert when Jesus corrected Satan’s erroneous use of Scripture?

        17)
        Sure, you can find a scripture or two to bend in this man-made doctrine’s direction. But that s just my point, BENDING!!! And is that really the way we should think? Is the bible the standard or the man-made Trinity Doctrine? The Trinity Doctrine is not needed nor is it relevant for understanding God’s word the bible.

        I hope my responses will help us to move away from this type of surface level assertion.

        18)
        When Jesus was praying to his Father, his God Jehovah at John 17:17, he stated that his God’s word is truth. And indeed it is!!! He did not state it was a mystery or difficult to understand. This is why Jehovah’s Witnesses have only one doctrine, God’s word the Bible. It is the only reliable source as opined at 2 Tim 3:16.

          But did not Peter state that ‘our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”?

        So, which is it, friend? Are the Scriptures all easy and understandable, or are there hard things to understand?

        19)
        Jehovah’s word the bible can speak for its self. That Trinity Doctrine needs a lot of help, help that does not exist.

        Please, do respond.

  5. stan schmunk

    Good, accurate, loving work.

  6. Steve

    Thanks for the discussion.  Here are my closing remarks:

    1. Jehovah wants us to know who is and his purpose for mankind.
    2. Jehovah has has four cardinal attributes: love, wisdom, power and justice.  No where is he describe in his word as being a mystery. ” Mystery” is a man-made excuse for justifying its validity of this man-made doctrine masquerading as bible truth.  It contradicts the bible in so many ways. 
    3. All 66 books in the bible are in harmony with each other.  The man-made Trinity Doctrine does not harmonize with the bible.
    4. You dishonor Jehovah by elevating his son to equal status.  Even worst, you give Jesus, his son, the glory Jehovah deserves alone.
    5. The bible does not contradict itself.  It is our standard, not the man-made Trinity Doctrine.  The bible does not need any supplement to explain Jehovah or his Son.  The bible speaks for itself very clearly.   

    Here is one fundamental truth that can not be denied:  No man can see Jehovah God and live. (Exodus 33:20) And no man has ever seen “the God” and lived to tell about it.   Many saw Jesus, touched him, lived with him, ate with him and preached with him.  Is he God in the flesh or is he the Son of Jehovah God???  You can not have it both ways.

    You have the last word…

    • Here then is the last word, sadly. I was hoping for some direct answers to at least some of the critical questions I asked, especially to know if Steve has ever read anything about God’s nature – anything at all which was not published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I suspect if he has it was limited and/or quickly scanned and discarded. I say this in love and concern for Steve and for all of our Jehovah’s Witness friends:
      If you have not read much or any viewpoint on the Scripture which is outside of your tiny religion born in the late 1800’s, then you are being kept in a little closet of information – exactly what an abuser does to someone he has kidnapped. If the Watchtower actually had the truth, they would not be afraid of you searching these things out by critical analysis. The complicated thing is, they convince you that you actually are doing critical analysis when you read Watchtower materials. Now that is impressive control, and its no wonder the JW’s are known for having such a massively difficult time coming out of the group even when the truth breaks through to one of them. I know you are in danger of losing your family and friends – and have been told that Jehovah will annihilate you if you don’t slavishly do all the Watchtower says… but Jesus said

      “to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

      And what was that Word in which we are to abide? To know Christ Jesus for who He is and what He has done. He is God of very God come in human flesh, as in John 1:

      1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

      If He was already God in the beginning, and ALL THINGS CAME INTO BEING THROUGH HIM, AND APART FROM HIM [JESUS] NOTHING CAME INTO BEING THAT HAS COME INTO BEING, then that eliminates the possibility that Jesus came into being, ever, at any point. He is not created, He is the Creator. You simply. cannot. get. around. that. text.

      Then look at verse 14:

      And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

      So then as plain as day – a 3rd grader could understand this text – God eternal is more than 1 Person, He is at least two Persons (see verse 1), and the Word who is God became flesh; a man.

      And what has He done? He died on the cross for the sin of the world. The Watchtower teaches you that He died on an upright torture stake, not a cross. One problem (among others) with that fake history: John 20:25 –

      But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

      Thomas, who was an eyewitness, spoke of the nails, plural. As in, two hands were pierced by separate nails, as in, hands extended to the cross beam.

      Steve, if you’re reading, I know you are either dismissing everything I’m saying or at best still thinking that I am just confused, so I will leave it at this:

      Jesus willingly laid down His life for His sheep, to pay the full penalty for their sins against God. He took upon Himself the wrath of God, as a Man but also as God. This, although beyond the limits of our mind, is our only hope. God removing His own wrath by crushing His precious Son under what we deserve. When Jesus rose from the dead, He was vindicated as the Christ, as the perfect, spotless Lamb of God who had taken away our sins.

      That was all done for us, long BEFORE us. It is finished because it WAS FINISHED THAT DAY. You are told you must work to please God, the Bible says Jesus worked on the behalf of sinners because we cannot please God. You are offered salvation and the complete forgiveness of sin in Christ – but never on the basis of what you do. His death was enough for me. I invite you to call on Jehovah God with an honest heart to ask Him to reveal the true Jesus to you… He will, but in order for you to receive the free salvation offered in Christ, you have to approach Him broken, with nothing in your hands. Let go of the Watchtower fear they have put in you and trust Christ Jesus to carry you home to glory with Him. He is that good, strong, generous, loving, forgiving, and merciful among a trillion other things. Trust Him.

      I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me.

      Not the Watchtower, not the Vatican/Pope, not by works, not by money.

      By Christ Jesus alone.

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